Tulpa.info - tulpa-questions-2

I'm sure I've asked before but... what's the difference between the two fronts?

We have two fronts so we can have possession and switching without losing one or the other. Being really care free and sloppy with possession is awesome and doing that with switching is not, so to get the best of both worlds we came up with two fronts. For us, switching gives you complete ownership of the body while possession gives you control as long as whoever is switched-in gives you the green light. If Gray gets distracted right now, I'll get kicked out automatically and he'll do his thing until he remembers I exist again. If I were switched-in, the opposite would happen. Our headmates don't have trust to switch in yet (blah blah we have weird mental health problems blah blah), so this also allows them to control the body without having complete control over it.

So possession is like "fronting from behind", or...?

4:34 PM

Like backseat driving? :p

(This is where I should warn my replies are sloppy today. After the textwall I dumped on the forums I'm feeling tired and I feel like I'm not doing a good job explaining stuff)

No worries! I'm not a criminal prosecutor, at least not in my free time ~

Back-seat fronting for our system is a whole other can of worms. I honestly don't fully understand the experience, but I think it's safe to say it's unrelated to possession or switching. It's basically a weird consequence of the fact we don't definite switching to be related to being the main headmate thinking Wait do I understand that experience? Dang I'm forgetful as all get out too (edited)

Someone is posting sinful text walls in here? How dare you?

4:42 PM

I do not use symbolism for possession at all. I rarely do so with switching anymore but it's still something we do as a grounding mechanism. But possession I have only ever just done it, so to speak, both successfully and unsuccessfully. I can do it consistently now, but that seems to be a function of understanding the hypnotic headspace, which is relative-to-tulpamancy a more recent development.

4:42 PM

Oh Ranger's goin' bigly again. How blasphemous.

I'm going to be lazy and use the car metaphor I guess Switching (for us) is like being in the driver's seat. You can let someone sit on your lap or sit next to you and take the wheel (possession), but you as the switched-in driver are buckled in. If the car screeches to a halt, the possessor gets thrown into the back seat and the switched-in headmate takes the wheel and drives. Also, as the driver, you can tell people to be quiet if they're being noisy. I think this is where the car metaphor kind of fails me here, but you can also get people into the trunk (maybe some kind of button or something? I don't know). The important thing here is even if Gray is switched-in and not paying attention to the road, I can drive and pay attention but I'm still possessing. If Gray wakes up, he can boot me out. Also... Don't drive the way we front. This is a metaphor kids, please drive safely on the road and use seat belts. Pull over if you're tired and don't take your eyes off the road.

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Okay, three questions. First: Is it particularly normal to speak out loud, back and forth, with my Others? And if so, does it typically make people uncomfortable? As an over-analytical human on the autism spectrum, it's difficult sometimes to tell, especially when I start disconnecting from my surroundings...

5:26 PM

Second, if I don't see eye-to-eye with a therapist on this whole phenomenon, what can I say/do to help them see what I feel like should be obvious, i.e., that my Others are real people with real needs?

Luminesce: Talking out loud to my tulpas is something I've never done because I don't want to be seen as crazy, lol (edited)

5:28 PM

If you can talk internally, that is preferable, if not, only do it when others aren't around

5:29 PM

(I don't recommend this, but if you absolutely must in public, you can pretend to be talking to someone on your phone)

5:29 PM

Though I imagine the things you might say would still weird people out

rambling_red_wiz

Second, if I don't see eye-to-eye with a therapist on this whole phenomenon, what can I say/do to help them see what I feel like should be obvious, i.e., that my Others are real people with real needs?

All therapists differ, though so do all systems, so I couldn't even say that plurality is 100% healthy in your system for example

5:30 PM

But the typical stuff to do is to (if this is true) say that they're good influences and help you out in life

5:31 PM

And that (if this is true) they don't encourage you to do anything bad or unhealthy

5:31 PM

If those things aren't true, then you would just be lying to your therapist

5:31 PM

But yeah, every single person's individual reaction to plurality will differ

Thank you for your input. And third, if two Others have contradicting needs, like one needs more attention, and one needs... more attention... how do I figure out how to help them? I realise the phrasing on this one is kind of weird.

The more systemmates you have, the more attention will necessarily be divided among them, which is the primary reason people don't recommend making (or for walk-ins, acknowledging) more than a few at most

5:33 PM

There's no special trick to somehow having more time in the day, you either have the time and motivation to meet their attention needs or you don't I guess

imhaving a ton of trouble clearing my mind and listening to my tulpa the longest sentence ive heard from him was "hello im good!" and im really proud of him for that, but i dont think im listening to him enough

we think our host just age regressed o.o this is odd because she's never done this before

We have headmates who are age regressed or switch between being a child and an adult. I have personally age regressed before, but not for very long. I am usually sad and insecure when I do it though. I don't want to give any examples, this is a more personal subject I don't want to elaborate on. If the reason they are choosing to age regress is because they are upset, talking things out with them can help. Getting out of that can be urgent, especially if you're expected to host for the system. However, if you have a co-host already figured out, then that would give you guys more time

@ShadieCakes

@A long kiss goodnight We think it was involuntary. But yes, we do have a co-host named Constance

I'm assuming that the trigger for the age regression is negative, but please tell me if I'm on the wrong track. Are they stuck in an age regressed state or is it a random thing that happened and it ended? (edited)

I actually had a quick question about the tulpa.info forums: Are tulpas allowed to have their own profile? Rn I had my tulpa Kyra on there but she didn't enjoy surfing on the internet that much, and now I have a new tulpa, Zeno, who might be interested. Can profiles be made of tulpas only, or does it have to be the host, etc?

Yeah, they can, of course

#tulpa-discussion is still active and I want to share my thoughts here. Gray agreed to me experimenting with parallel processing (yaay!) And I got to model crafting. I'm toying around with this concept of "strong" and "weak" channels to explain some experiences in our system and possibly experiences in other systems. I like that I can draw cool pictures with it, but I think I'll need a little more thinking to actually achieve something. Here's what I have so far:

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1:11 PM

A "strong channel" is an entity in the mind that is self-sustaining all on its own. A strong channel has the ability to power other "channels" that can't do so on their own. I want to call these other "channels" "weak channels".

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1:17 PM

I think this works best with an example. A strong channel would be the front, or stream of consciousness (SOC). A tulpa or even our mind music is a weak channel. A tulpa or our mind music can't spontaneously work on its own, they need to be thought of in order to become active. A "strong channel" can actually interact with a "weak channel" in at least three different ways- the weak channel can be "inside" of the strong channel (tulpa connected to the front), the tulpa can be sort of in the front but not quite inside of it (a tulpa you are talking to and then forget about later), and not interacting at all (a dormant tulpa). I have a picture as an example where I am switched-in, Gray is possessing or talking to me, and Tom is inactive.

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1:17 PM

1:20 PM

I believe the front is a channel because aside from the already built-in assumption it is a stream, Gray and I have achieved an experience where we somehow "compete". I call this experience "double switched-in" or "double-fronting"- both Gray and I are attached to the front, and suddenly both of us are on equal terms, constantly interrupting each other, and having too much fun with having trouble washing our hands-

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1:23 PM

I believe tulpas are also "channels" rather than just entities by reflecting on Blue and Chrome's merging experience. When they merged, they achieved an experience very similar to our "double switched-in" experience. If we tried to talk to Blue, both Blue and Chrome would reply, and it was as if they competed for the same thoughts. It was fascinating to see this happen in the back, which to me means that tulpas (at least in our system) must have their own "channels", otherwise this wouldn't be possible.

1:28 PM

From this point, I figure if you can create a "weak channel", why not a "strong" one? The only problem is I kind of have no idea what it would take to create one. I'm tempted to try double fronting until the front splits, but aside from that possibly being a bad idea, I wonder if the more likely outcome would be it just causes one of us to switch out.

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1:31 PM

It also doesn't help that I'm completely speculating what a possible "pseudo-SOC" even is. I think it could be a possible explanation for why some systems have "inner worlds" and persistent realms, they somehow have another SOC they can go to. If the host is switched-in, it would explain why the host would have a lot of difficulty accessing this other space and the inherent lack of control (we strongly assume that if you are switched-in, you have the most control). I also wonder if it's possible some tulpas actually have their own SOCs in addition to their own channels, and that would create a very different experience with switching than say what we do where Gray and I switch in and out of the same front. There's also the fear of wanting to actually turn off any pseudo-SOC we end up creating. If we can create a SOC, why not turn it off? We don't know what the consequences for having something like it are, like if it kills our ability to focus. The new problem is we don't want to learn how to "turn off" our front, but the idea of doing that sounds pretty ridiculous. You can't just uh... black out for no reason, it doesn't make any sense That's where we are for now. (edited)

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A long kiss goodnight

From this point, I figure if you can create a "weak channel", why not a "strong" one? The only problem is I kind of have no idea what it would take to create one. I'm tempted to try double fronting until the front splits, but aside from that possibly being a bad idea, I wonder if the more likely outcome would be it just causes one of us to switch out.

Naive idea: What if you took on a different cognitive task for each of the potential splitters? Similar to the method used in the fMRI experiments of simultaneous multitasking in ordinary subjects? Perhaps with a preset future rendezvous point to time limit the splitting of the stream., but that's just my mostly singlet cautiousness, and my NLP habits of setting up a safe experiment until we know more?

A long kiss goodnight

It also doesn't help that I'm completely speculating what a possible "pseudo-SOC" even is. I think it could be a possible explanation for why some systems have "inner worlds" and persistent realms, they somehow have another SOC they can go to. If the host is switched-in, it would explain why the host would have a lot of difficulty accessing this other space and the inherent lack of control (we strongly assume that if you are switched-in, you have the most control). I also wonder if it's possible some tulpas actually have their own SOCs in addition to their own channels, and that would create a very different experience with switching than say what we do where Gray and I switch in and out of the same front. There's also the fear of wanting to actually turn off any pseudo-SOC we end up creating. If we can create a SOC, why not turn it off? We don't know what the consequences for having something like it are, like if it kills our ability to focus. The new problem is we don't want to learn how to "turn off" our front, but the idea of doing that sounds pretty ridiculous. You can't just uh... black out for no reason, it doesn't make any sense That's where we are for now. (edited)

Your cautiousness is well placed in my opinion. Your thoughts above are specifically the type of discussion I am seeking by participating here. I think it's pretty clear the front SOC can be switched off as in some DID. My mother was a disassiative alcoholic, whose personality was radically different with the first drink, even before getting drunk. Many alcoholics experience black out (of the sober SOC) while the inebriated functions in the world often not even appearing to others as drunk, and not just for short times. Some go at least days or weeks, 'wake up' in another city having travelled long distances. The point is not to employ drugs or create a disorder but this provides strong evidence that human minds have these capabilities, and more, even though we don't consciously use them or discuss them. Also obviously, the vast majority of people don't actively create tulpas.

6:06 PM

There are specific hypnosis & NLP techniques for dissociation (of various degrees), integration, modeling cognitive strategies of others, & altering our own to transfer skills identified in others. Some techniques are simple & trivial, while others are quite profound (eg DTI) and come with cautions to avoid adopting the physical illnesses etc of the model in the process. (edited)

6:08 PM

. DTI ==> Deep Trance Identification (edited)

The more I learn about dissociation the more scary it sounds. First learning from Zen that strong dissociation can be achieved through ritual practice and then that for at least one person, all it takes to shut down the SOC is being an alcoholic. Yikes. I think figuring out a model that will protect the front is a good idea. Gray managed to ground himself before learning about tulpamancy by believing he was ultimately in control, I think we can create something that will lock the front down so it doesn't leave the... Is the front just a software package, it's just a thing that connects to the brain? That would make sense, hmm.

Ringer Paladin

Naive idea: What if you took on a different cognitive task for each of the potential splitters? Similar to the method used in the fMRI experiments of simultaneous multitasking in ordinary subjects? Perhaps with a preset future rendezvous point to time limit the splitting of the stream., but that's just my mostly singlet cautiousness, and my NLP habits of setting up a safe experiment until we know more?

We haven't thought about this. One idea I have for splitting the SOC is having both of us switched-in and then both of us doing something to force a separation. If Gray and I did different tasks, maybe that would trigger a split? I definitely don't want to try this without figuring out an "off" switch for the "pseudo SOC" and an "no-off" switch for the front.

Okay all of this has made me very excited, I set up an environment on Discord where I could record myself attempting to parallel process (see #server-discussion ), and then I realized I don't actually have a parallel processing test (see #forum-rss when the rss feed identifies it) #server-discussion https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431587416135172096/995499912689098792 #forum-rss <doesn't exist yet> (edited)

A long kiss goodnight

Okay all of this has made me very excited, I set up an environment on Discord where I could record myself attempting to parallel process (see #server-discussion ), and then I realized I don't actually have a parallel processing test (see #forum-rss when the rss feed identifies it) #server-discussion https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431587416135172096/995499912689098792 #forum-rss <doesn't exist yet> (edited)

Haven't heard from you much since our really good discussion so I wanted to check in with you on any progress you might have made with your exciting ideas....?

I have been taking a break from tulpa discussion on Discord. I think it comes and goes for me. At the very least, Pleeb told me that I could download a flash emulator to get that working. I want to wait until I'm switched-in and in a better mood before jumping into that, which will probably be in the near future. I feel like I need to catch up on some discussion before talking more. I don't think it's fair if I haven't gotten around catching up on my reading list

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A long kiss goodnight

I have been taking a break from tulpa discussion on Discord. I think it comes and goes for me. At the very least, Pleeb told me that I could download a flash emulator to get that working. I want to wait until I'm switched-in and in a better mood before jumping into that, which will probably be in the near future. I feel like I need to catch up on some discussion before talking more. I don't think it's fair if I haven't gotten around catching up on my reading list

No problem, no pressure; I just wanted to encourage you and let your know again your ideas and excitement are appreciated -- and I'll be easy enough to find if you wish as some future point....

Herb wants to give himself a stronger “signature”. By signature, I mean like, the presence of a headmate and that feeling that lets you know it’s them

10:18 PM

how might we do this?

im surprised that you made a tulpa and managed to not get that. I guess you haven’t done enough forcing or something

Ooo, you have a tulpa now? I missed that.

I know how tulpamancy works

That was to Herb/Skyler. (edited)

he’s actually my fourth Never had this problem before

gets harder and harder to give enough time to everyone the more and more you add.

Wait, now I'm confused... do you by chance have a tulpa with the same name as that individual above you?

my tulpas are Kira, Sol, Lun, (Sol and Lun are a subsystem, Soluna) and Herbert

11:41 PM

Kira was the only intentional one

At any rate, for the signature/presence/essence/whatever/soul. It's a difficult one to describe and it comprises a both a directional sense and a personality-feel. Honestly I think the best way is to just have a complex personality for your tulpa from the get go and to understand what that feels like, relative to other mental characters. If it's weak, it tells me that they don't have a strongly defined essence relative to the rest of you.

Kira has now been missing for thirty-eight days…

Definition is the key.

also, idk if it makes a difference, but Herb is nonverbal

squints

11:44 PM

Intentionally?

yea he wants to be that way

That sounds extremely silly, but given I'm a degenerate, who am I to judge.

he seems to want to just keep as simple.

11:45 PM

Herb was supposed to be an npc that was a pet

At the risk of assuming to much, that might be the problem. They're literally simple to the point of not having a real personality...

11:46 PM

The signature is very much a thing of a complex archetype.

11:46 PM

Summed up into a single feeling.

At the risk of assuming to much, that might be the problem. They're literally simple to the point of not having a real personality...

@Zen - jump he would like to disagree with that-

That's good at least. =D

he’s got a personality He likes feathers And likes making people happy by acting cute and silly And does stuff with his void (he’s a blob of void that is a cat?)

11:48 PM

it seems he might be capable of just zoning out or something in more negative situations

What is it, specifically, you would say that his signature lacks compared to the others?

11:49 PM

Experientially?

11:49 PM

What makes you say it is weaker?

because I can’t exactly really spot it

11:50 PM

and he claims that’s likely a reason he struggled with trying to front

11:50 PM

that he was “lost track of” or something

Mmm. Let's say, for the sake of science, you are a void blob cat. In that circumstance, do you have same goals? Do you have the same feeling behind your intentions and emotions? Maybe imagine them in your circumstances, then how you would respond in a similar copy if not the same? Really dissect how those thoughts feel, relative to yours, when stress-tested, as it were?

11:54 PM

It might be there is not a difference. Or it might be that you just don't notice it yet.

sorry disappeared a bit aaa I’m back now though

12:12 AM

I might not be interpreting this right but I know under stress he seems to just go blank-

12:14 AM

he also says he doesn’t want complex thoughts

I mean specifically think of both of you in situations in parallel. Do direct comparisons of how you feel, particularly when both of you are put in complex situations that match the other's circumstance.

12:14 AM

Not the intensity of the action.

12:15 AM

Doesn't... want complex thoughts? Does he think his thoughts are somehow less complex now?

I guess you could say that he doesn’t want to ponder on things a bunch?

12:17 AM

he seems to maybe be emphasizing on that with a blep right now, heh

He sounds like he relies on a lot of impulse and little abstraction.

also I’m struggling to think of a good situation

H- do cute things = make people happy :)

12:19 AM

Oof

12:19 AM

No bot set up for him here

12:19 AM

It’s on pluralkit-